‘Admissible’ S4 E2: Enjoying (and Conserving) the Great Outdoors at UVA Law

NATALIE BLAZER: In equestrian journalism, how do you even get into that?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Mostly, by being a horse crazy little girl.

NATALIE BLAZER: Got it.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: My husband was in the military. And we were kind of bouncing around a lot. And so I started pitching to places that write about horse sports. And I ended up getting to write for The Chronicle of the Horse, which really follows like competitive horse sports. So your Olympic athletes and things.

NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: So it was really fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: Have you seen the movie Notting Hill?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I have.

NATALIE BLAZER: When he pretends to write for horse and hound. That's all I can think about.

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NATALIE BLAZER: This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. When people think about Charlottesville, Virginia, where UVA Law is located, they often think of the natural beauty we are so fortunate to be surrounded by.

The Blue Ridge mountains are within view from pretty much anywhere in town. And even when you're right in the middle of the city, you're never more than a few steps away from an idyllic hiking trail, a sprawling vineyard, or breathtaking vista.

If you're someone who loves the great outdoors, or if you're someone who's hoping to study or practice environmental law one day, today's episode is for you. Not only are we going to share what makes Charlottesville so special as a home to boundless natural beauty and outdoor activities, we're also going to share how current UVA Law students have been involved in preserving Charlottesville's natural resources from an environmental law perspective.

Having said that, I am so excited to introduce my two guests today, third year law students Casey Crowley and Elizabeth Putfark. Casey is originally from Golden, Colorado and attended the University of Colorado in Boulder for undergrad. After graduating from UVA Law, this upcoming spring Casey will be clerking on the Seventh Circuit and then on a district court in Denver. Very impressive.

In his free time, Casey likes to spend time in the outdoors. Casey actually is the one who pitched this idea for the show today, read about history, and spend time with his friends.

Elizabeth grew up in both Carolinas and earned her bachelor's and master's in English literature at the University of South Carolina. Before law school, she worked as an adjunct rhetoric and composition professor, while also writing professionally within the niche field of equestrian journalism.

Elizabeth has done law school with two adorable kids, currently aged five and eight. And this fall, she'll start work at the Southern Environmental Law Center's Charlottesville office as an associate attorney. Wow. Also very impressive. Welcome to the show, Casey and Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Thank you.

CASEY CROWLEY: Thanks for having us.

NATALIE BLAZER: So a little icebreaker for you two before we get started. What is your favorite restaurant in Charlottesville?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Easy for me. I'm a Brazos fan.

NATALIE BLAZER: OK.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: With small kids, it's the place to go and be outside and relaxed. Yeah. Triple pickle is my favorite.

NATALIE BLAZER: We just went to Brazos on Friday for a little team lunch. Love it.

CASEY CROWLEY: So I've recently become a foodie after like moving to Charlottesville because the restaurants here are so great. So if you're going high class and want the best meal in Charlottesville, Flurry, I thought is the best. It's awesome.

But if you're trying to go a little cheaper, just a great spot, I like Public Oyster. It's like really good seafood, really good drinks, awesome oysters.

NATALIE BLAZER: Get there before 6:00 and you might get a lobster roll.

CASEY CROWLEY: That's right.

NATALIE BLAZER: If they're not sold out.

CASEY CROWLEY: Yeah. $2 oysters too.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Casey and Elizabeth, since most of our listeners, as you know, are current law school applicants and prospective law students, let's just start by going back a few years talk about how you made the decision to go to law school. Can you each just share briefly how you made the decision to come to UVA?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. For me, I knew that I wanted to have a pretty narrow focus. I was interested in studying environmental law. And I wanted to go into the field on the public service side. So I had a pretty strong direction.

So for me, it honestly came down to the clinic. A law school clinic is where students get to work with a faculty member as essentially like a small law firm. And you have clients and you have active cases. And so it was an opportunity, to my mind, to get my hands dirty as early as too well working with clients and working on the kind of cases that I wanted to do.

And I actually called Professor Cale Jaffe, who runs the Environmental Law Clinic, before starting law school just to have a conversation and find out more about it. And I talk to students who had completed the clinic. And all that kind of just told me OK, this is a program that's really thriving and something that I would want to be a part of.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And we're going to talk about that a lot more later in the show. Casey.

CASEY CROWLEY: So when I was looking at law schools, I was looking at the professors. And at that time, I was kind of interested in legal academia. I was doing a lot of reading of law reviews. And I was reaching out to these professors at different law schools about their articles. And I had heard nothing.

And then I come across an article by Professor Prakash at UVA. And I emailed him I said, hey, this is a great article. Here's a couple of questions. And within 15 minutes, he had emailed me back, answered all my questions, asked me questions. And we probably went back four or five times. And after that, I was like this is the place for me.

NATALIE BLAZER: Our faculty are amazing. Gosh. They do reply. And they will get in a back and forth. They'll talk on the phone. They'll do a Zoom. That's great. Love Cale. Love Cy. OK.

So someone considering coming to UVA Law may a lot about the school. They may about the clinic, for example. They may reach out to the faculty. Our faculty are very well known. But a prospective law student might not really have any familiarity with Charlottesville, the city, and everything it has to offer. Unlike if you're thinking about Penn or NYU or Georgetown.

It's likely, I would say, that might not have visited Charlottesville the way that you would have DC or Philadelphia or New York on a school trip, for example. So for listeners out there, Charlottesville obviously is surrounded by all this nature. I want to talk about sort of specifics in terms of activities.

So what would you sort of put out there as the best ways to spend outdoors in Charlottesville? Obviously, it'll depend on the season. So I'll let you start with whatever you want to highlight.

CASEY CROWLEY: Sure. So in winter, I think, you have skiing, you have snowboarding at Wintergreen, some other nearby ski resorts. You've got hiking trails. Charlottesville can be warm in the summer. So it's nice when it cools down. You can really save those like long walks, those backpacking trips for sort of when it starts to cool down.

In the spring, backpacking is great. Lots of hikes, bike rides. Softball is also picking up. There's a big tournament for that. Fishing is great too. That's normally when I like to go fishing because it starts to rain and the rivers are great for fishing.

So the summer is really great here because it's warm, so you want to get up high. So that's where Shenandoah is great. You can go take long walks. One of my favorite things to do is tube down the river with friends. There's a great little swimming hole, and like a rope swing.

And then fall is kind of similar. It cools down. I went on a great backpacking trip this fall. Trail runs. My brother's in 1L. And we would go drive up to Shenandoah and just take a break and just do some trail runs up there. Again, softball is picking up for all the 1L's. Yeah.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think fall is my favorite.

CASEY CROWLEY: I agree.

NATALIE BLAZER: It's just the foliage like wherever you turn, it's just stunning outside. Anything you want to add?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. I mean that covers a lot of it. For me, I've loved that you have that in Charlottesville, but also if you drive just a hairsbreadth outside of Charlottesville, it's rural. And that's really hard to find at other schools, to get to rural space. It was important to us to live somewhere where we could have chickens.

I'm proud to say we've reached the point in chicken ownership, where I don't how many we have. I've gotten involved in some community gardening, which is really great in the area. And I just started volunteering at a local horse rescue, where you can just go and muck some stalls and feed some horses and pet some noses.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, that's great.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Just enjoy being outside.

NATALIE BLAZER: And Casey mentioned Shenandoah. So Shenandoah National Park runs, I don't how many miles, but it's a huge national park sort of just slightly West of us. The annual pass is super cheap. I can't remember what it is.

CASEY CROWLEY: It's $50.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So basically, like $1 a week. It's just insane. And you can-- all types of levels of difficulty hikes with dogs, without dogs, things you could do with your parents who are in town, things you could do with little kids, things like that are a little bit more advanced. And just getting out there. And just the views are unreal. Some of them take longer than others. I usually look for like the two to three-hour. That's like good for me, a Saturday morning.

So there's also, you mentioned the Rivanna Trail. This, still, is stunning to me. It's a 26-mile actual trail system that surrounds Charlottesville. So if you want it, and I think people have done this, you can run an actual marathon on the Rivanna Trail.

You can pick it up anywhere outside the city. Right behind the law school, you are on the Rivanna Trail. So you can go, you could follow that basically to my house, to downtown, to beyond. Like it's pretty wild.

And there's the Rivanna Trail Foundation. They organize these cleanups and maintenance of the trail and all of that you can get involved with on the weekends too, which I love.

Locally, like if you don't want to drive to Shenandoah, do you guys have a favorite like trail, park? Like I love Riverview Park. It's the only flat. If you're a runner like I am, and you're getting older and don't love all the hills in this city, Riverview Park, you have the river right there. And it's like the only flat place. But you guys have others.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Maybe it's because most of my running is out in the country. I have a really good time going like starting my run on the mall, and then kind of exploring the city.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, nice.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: And you usually see lots of other people out doing the same. So it's pretty fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: And since we're talking about running, so the ragged mountain running shop, which is just sort of, I would say, the hub for all runners in the city, I think that store has been here for 40 years, run by the same family. And they put on races Like all throughout the year.

I always tell people, if you're coming to Charlottesville, and you're a runner, go to that store, and you will just-- they have everything you need to know. You can obviously get all of your gear. This is not a ad. But they do the Charlottesville like the women's 4-miler in the fall that I've done every year.

They do a lot of trail runs throughout the year. It's just a great place if you just want to get connected with that community like breweries. I know some of our students have told me they go to like a brewery on a Monday night and do a run. Cou Cou Rachou, the bakery.

CASEY CROWLEY: Yeah. Our friend has like-- it's a running club. All the law students go in the morning before class and then you run around. I think it's two miles and then you all hang out at Cou Cou Rachou, the bakery, after.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: And that's just like the best pastry of your life.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. That's a good setup. So let's talk about people who love nature. But they maybe want to enjoy it without a three-hour hike or a five-mile run or something. What are just like, I would say, less athletic ways to enjoy everything Charlottesville has to offer?

CASEY CROWLEY: I think vineyards are amazing. That's like one of the gems, I think, of Charlottesville, is like going up to the mountains with friends and just enjoying the view. And it really it's an all-season activity. I was at Pippin Hill a week ago. And you can walk around outside, but then you can sit inside, you'll be at an awesome restaurant with great wine, law school friends. Yeah, it's a great time.

NATALIE BLAZER: The views are really worth it for in and of themselves. Like I don't even think necessarily like need to drink wine while you're there. You can like we take our dog and we just kind of hang out. Maybe get like one tasting over the course of a few hours. But I definitely agree. It's where you can just really see the best views.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. And I'll say, I'm more of a brewery girl, but you get the same thing. Down off of 151, which runs Southwest of town, there are a lot of breweries along that way. And this is miracles of zoning. They all are on really large lots, so you'll have 10 acres of space, often along a river, or something like that.

So there's just infinite options for laying out a picnic blanket and just hanging out and enjoying being outside.

CASEY CROWLEY: Yeah. I was going to say, another great thing that I did one that was totally new to me was apple picking.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes.

CASEY CROWLEY: How enjoyable is this. You just like drive and then just go pick some apples for $5 and get a whole bunch of apples, some cider. The Sunset Series is another thing that's really popular with law students. You go to some-- I can't remember the-- do you where it actually is?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Carter mountain.

CASEY CROWLEY: Carter mountain. That's right. So you go up there with your law school friends and you just sit you, eat, you drink some apple cider. And you just watch the sunset go down. It's really popular.

NATALIE BLAZER: Their apple cider donuts are amazing. And their sister Orchard, I think it's pronounced chiles, we go there for the pumpkin picking, also, in the fall. And my husband, he always says we have to get the donuts. We have to get the donuts. And he ends up getting like three boxes of the apple cider donuts.

And like eats all of them. I mean, he goes nuts, nuts for those things. Yeah. Fruit picking, pumpkin patches. Like again, a beautiful day, I think that's like the best way. The Sunset Series is awesome too.

CASEY CROWLEY: Hey, have you heard of the Boar's Head like light show?

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. I went, I think, three times last year. It's called the Winter Wander. It's really cool. It's really pretty. Veritas vineyards actually does their own version of it. In my mind, they're like competing with each other to really outdo each other every year, which I kind of love.

Yeah. They just string up all these holiday lights. And it starts right before Thanksgiving and ends sometime in January. And it's really just a lovely wholesome way to spend like the holiday season. You just walk the trails and you see all the lights. We took our dog on the dog-friendly night and got his picture with Santa.

Yeah. I love that. They have little like hot cocoa. They have a little like ice skating rink. Yeah. So I love doing that.

The other thing I will mention that Dean Goluboff mentioned on the podcast, the most recent episode, farmers market. This is like if you want to go and run into, like 10 different people, I highly recommend the farmers market at X Park.

I mentioned dogs. I have a dog. And so our life kind of revolves around him. For anyone out there who's considering bringing a dog to law school, I would say it's a very dog-friendly city. Lots of restaurants. You can sit on the patio, lots of places to take your dog off leash, run around, just a big part of the reason we moved to Charlottesville from DC was to get a dog. So I would say that's a huge benefit as well.

And horses, and chickens. And whatever other pets you want to have. So what would you say to someone out there who's listening, who's thinking like, I'm coming for law school. I'm going to be inside. I'm going to be studying. I'm going to have so much to do. I'm never going to have time to do any of this.

CASEY CROWLEY: So I had that perspective as 1L. I did not-- I was so stressed about school. I did not go outside enough. And it was a real problem. I was just so in my room and oh, my God, I just can't even think about how tense I was all the time.

And so it's about making time for the things that are important. And now that I look back, an hour outdoors with friends, or just by myself, is worth way more than four hours of studying because you need to be in a good place to succeed. And yeah, you have to find that balance.

NATALIE BLAZER: Elizabeth, as a mother of two, and a law student, do you have anything to add to that? How do you make time?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Well, I use kind of a similar philosophy for when I struggle to make time for family time, which is I take myself out of the equation a little bit and say, my kids need time with their mom. And I kind of do the same thing for my body with the outdoors. I say, my body needs time outside.

So it's really not about whether I think I'm going to enjoy it or whether I think I'm going to be stressed, but it's just nope, the body needs sun.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's a great way to look at it.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Once you get out there, you're pretty happy, usually.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. OK. So I feel like we've covered a lot of the fun parts of being outside in Charlottesville. And if other things come to mind, like definitely bring them up. I think it's becoming more clear in the sort of public consciousness that we can't take any of this natural beauty around us for granted.

Which is why it was really important to me, in today's episode, to touch on how our students are involved in local conservation efforts and actively getting trained at UVA Law to be environmental lawyers.

I read applications all day every day. And believe me, a lot of people are concerned about the environment, climate change, all these things. They want to come study environmental law. So what has that looked like for you?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Well it's not like choosing a major in college. It's more of choosing classes and coursework and structuring your time here so that you gain an understanding of our environmental regulatory policies and how different laws affect our natural resources, affect the pollution or cleanliness of the environment, and how all that intersects with climate change.

So for me, that's looked like thinking very consciously about taking classes that are geared in that interest. And one thing that I loved about UVA, and that made me want to come here was knowing that I could start that second semester of 1L.

So you can take environmental law your second semester. It's usually offered. But yeah, so it's really more of a collection of courses and just a way of approaching your studies rather than a formal concentration.

NATALIE BLAZER: So can you tell us like for the clinic, which I think said you took 2L year.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yes.

NATALIE BLAZER: What specific issue or issues were you working on in that clinic? Just to give people an idea of what that's like.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Sure. Well, it's really it runs the gamut. So what I love about the Environmental Law Clinic at UVA is that it's an Environmental law and Community Engagement Clinic. So we do a lot of the things that are normal for environmental clinics, which is a lot of regulatory work.

So it's intervening on energy dockets, filing comments on NEPA proceedings. It's things that are very bread and butter, lots of acronyms, environmental law. But then there's other work that we do that's much more connected to the local community and the state community.

So one of the ongoing projects that the Community Engagement Clinic and Environmental Law and Community Engagement Clinic has is with the AMMD Pine Grove Project, which is an effort to preserve a historic Black schoolhouse in Central Virginia.

And that's something that the Environmental Law Clinic has been partnered with this community with for years and years now. So as a student, you just get to plug into this. And you have credibility with the community and connection with them to be able to work alongside of them and kind of support their advocacy and their goals. So that's a really great focus that the clinic has.

NATALIE BLAZER: So you mentioned it's a lot of regulatory work, which many areas of the law are. So is it what you expected? Obviously, the community connection part is amazing and the real impact work is amazing. Is the law piece of it what you expected it to be?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Well, parts of it are. I remember the first day of environmental law, Professor Mike Livermore, he taught when I was taking it. I remember him saying like, if you really like wonky, difficult, complex, overlapping statutory regimes, you are in the right place. And we were all like, yay. That sounds awesome.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's good. So that resonated with you.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: It did. And it is a lot of that. Because you've got so many different intersecting areas of law. But it's not like you become-- or at least from my perspective, it's not like you're going to just study the Clean Water Act. And that's going to be the end of the day, and you close the book.

Everything touches environmental law. So you need constitutional law. The case that I worked on last summer was all wrought up in separation of powers. You need property law. You need to think about nuisance that came up in a clinic case last semester.

You're dealing with federal courts extensively. But you're also dealing with land use. So really, so many types of law. You have to be kind of a jack of all trades. And I think that was a surprise and it made me really grateful to be somewhere where there is a strong general curriculum. Because you have to start with trying to be a really great lawyer before thinking that you're going to become just a strong specialty lawyer.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's so true. And even human rights, environmental law, and how that impacts human rights and poverty, and access to resources, and things like that.

So I wasn't planning to ask this question, although now, it's occurring to me. So you are going to be practicing environmental law after you graduate, and we're going to talk about that in a second. But as someone who has studied it now, and you've been in the clinic and that's the sort of career path you're going on, again, because this is something that touches everybody and touches everybody's life.

If there was one thing that you wish every single human on Earth could do, that would like have the biggest impact, what would it be?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Well, my instinct is to say meat consumption, to reduce. Not to eliminate necessarily or take all out, but to reduce and be very conscious about meat consumption. And think very critically about it.

But I honestly think that falls secondary to following energy policy and becoming a conscious voter, and thinking about the policies and structures, critically, and taking that seriously. So I guess, being an informed voter when it comes to environmental causes and being active on your representatives of whatever party to protect the environment. I think probably would have to live that impact.

NATALIE BLAZER: And everybody can do that. Whether they want to also eat meat, everyone can be a conscientious voter. So that's great.

Let's talk about sort of the student life aspect. So you have your clinic. You have your electives. You have your summer jobs. What's the sort of student organization seen when it comes to environmental law at UVA?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I think it really starts with the Virginia Environmental Law Forum or VELF as we call it. And really, it is what it says, it is the forum. So it's an idea of getting students together who are interested or passionate about environmentalism and environmental law, and building conversation.

So there, we have events for speakers, which bring professors in front of students, but also from other schools. But also just community-building events. Professor Cannon, who was former general counsel for the EPA, no big deal. He famously, for years and years, would invite students over to his house for a barbecue every fall. They'd go on a river, I think a kayak trip, and then go to his house.

And he formally retired the year before I started. So I did not get to partake. But another professor has sort of taken up that calling, so there's usually a barbecue every fall. And then VELF also has a really extensive alumni network, which we're working on building out. So that's connecting you with students who are here now and students who have gone on into environmental careers.

And the other kind of big groups that help are like we have a journal, which is wonderful for publishing environmental research and for connecting students with that research. And there's also the place, community-- and this is the program in law communities and the environment, I believe.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's right.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: We have a lot of acronyms. But that's almost like-- it's almost like a faculty student group. It's connecting faculty who are working on environmentally-related projects and letting some cross-pollination happen there, and creating some cool opportunities for students and for faculty research.

NATALIE BLAZER: PLACE gets mentioned a lot. Like you said, program and law communities and environment. People are really interested in that. I read that in applications all the time. So I love hearing that it's something that our students are actively involved in. It's a way to get to faculty. It's a way to have an impact while you're still in school in addition to the clinics.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. I had a cool opportunity through a paper that I wrote for my first year environmental law class. Another student wrote on the same topic. We wrote about wood pellets. Much more interesting than it sounds--

NATALIE BLAZER: What are wood pellets?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Wood pellets are compressed, ground up, and soaked wood that's burned for energy. And they're controversial as a renewable or non-renewable resource. But we both did research papers on it.

And one of our professors has a podcast that's sponsored by PLACE, Professor Livermore. And he invited us on to talk about it.

NATALIE BLAZER: So cool.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: That student paper became a podcast episode through PLACE, which was pretty fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: So do you have a stance on wood pellets, given that they're controversial?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Oh, I do.

NATALIE BLAZER: Pro?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I think that the cons outweigh the pros, unfortunately. The local air pollution associated with the manufacture and sourcing of wood in Southern forests. And then the spike in carbon emissions when we burn them.

So they would eventually be renewable because the trees could regrow and capture the carbon that's burned. But when we talk about climate change as a here and now problem, the life cycle doesn't quite line up with what we need to start drawing those emissions back down.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: You have to go listen to the episode

NATALIE BLAZER: I will now. Absolutely, I will. I feel like I've already learned a lot that I have not-- that I had no idea about. So absolutely well. So talk a little bit about what you're doing after graduation and sort of what you've done over the summers.

What the job placement or search has been like in the Environmental Law sphere for people out there who are interested?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. Well, we have a fair amount of students who do come here interested in this. So the career center on the public service and the private sector side is really helpful for finding new placements.

So my first summer, I met with career services and they kind of laid out a few options. And then I wanted to look into it more, so I reached out again to Professor Jaffe. And I had the odd circumstance of wanting to stay in Charlottesville, which a lot of people use summers to explore but. I wanted to stay in Charlottesville. And I went to him and said, what do you know of, what could I do?

And he had this whole long list that he'd clearly prepared, which was very kind. And then at the very end, he said, or you could just be an RA for me. And I was like, done. No take backs.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's great. So you did research for Professor Jaffe.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I did for the clinic, which ended up giving me the opportunity to work on the case they had before them at the time, which was writing an amicus brief for Saget versus EPA, which was in front of the Supreme Court.

NATALIE BLAZER: No big deal.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's awesome.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: It's a really cool one summer assignment. And then the next year, I was able to work at the Southern Environmental Law Center. And really, their proximity to UVA's campus was huge for me as an option for something that would be an opportunity when I came here.

And so I got to work with them last summer. And oddly, once again, ended up working on some briefing for Supreme Court, this time on the Shadow Docket. But that was a pipeline case that had to do with separation of powers, but that was my whole summer. It's a really great experience.

NATALIE BLAZER: Amazing. And so you're going to SELC, Southern Environmental Law Center, after graduation. And what will that look like? Is it just sort of do you know what types of cases, you'll be working on or you're just kind of there and you're going to do whatever they give you?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Well, I certainly would do whatever they give me. But I'll find out subject matter more when I get close to it, but I'll be an associate. And they're a public interest firm. So they're taking on cases in the public interest. So everything's going to be working towards conservation, working towards renewables, and smart energy policy. So that will be the direction of the work.

NATALIE BLAZER: So great. So before we kind of start to wrap up with sort of more general advice for applicants and things like that, everything about climate change and the environment, I feel, is very depressing, and everybody is very doomsday, do you have any like positive fact, anything we've really done a good job of accomplishing that people can feel good about?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: What gives me hope and what makes me feel positive is knowing the incredible people that are committing themselves to this problem. And that are seeing this as the work of their lives. And that's part of what motivated me about meeting the faculty here. Professor Jaffe is one. Professor Mike Livermore has also talked frequently about how this is laboring to do good.

Alison Gocke is another professor here, who is doing some really rock star research on energy policy. Professor Cannon is the ultimate optimist. His book, I would recommend to anyone who's interested in looking at the hard reality of where we are on energy policy and on environmental law, but thinking that we can still come together now in this moment of climate change in the way that in the '70s, people came together around localized pollution.

So I think just-- and then all the people that I've worked with at SELC, other students at UVA who are committed. So I think that's more where I draw hope. There are a lot of people, really smart, really good people who are throwing themselves at this.

NATALIE BLAZER: And you're one of them.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I get to be one of them.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's amazing. And I will say, I love that answer because that is how I feel reading applications sometimes. There are so many smart, ambitious, empathetic people out there. And I emphasize smart, smart, smart-driven people, who care about these issues, not just environmental law, but reproductive rights, incarceration, all of the problems of our society and just reading those and knowing that they're going to come to UVA hopefully an get to work on them is very uplifting.

When you feel like can't change the state of the world, that definitely gives me hope. So I love that.

All right. Casey, you each started three years ago. Try to think back to where you were when you were applying, that process. What advice would you give to someone out there who's in that process right now.

CASEY CROWLEY: For me, I think, the best thing you can do is really show in your application what you're bringing to the UVA Law community. Like what makes you unique? What separates you from everybody else? Is it a particular passion, whatever that is? Or is it, I'm going to be a mentor to future generations? Like what sets you apart from everybody else and really highlighting that I think is key.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. I could not agree more. Being yourself, what are you bringing? It doesn't need to be the most unique thing ever. It really doesn't. It just needs to be authentic to you. I love that. Elizabeth, what advice would you give to anyone out there working on their applications?

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I would say something very similar, which is to the approach that I took back when I was doing journalism, when I was telling stories about other people, was that I had to look for what was the truest thing about them, the truest way that I could unify their story into a central theme.

And that was a shift from when I started journalism, when I wanted to find some hook or angle or something interesting and different. But instead, to say no, what is actually like the truest thing I can say about this person, and then how do I say that in a compelling way.

And I think if you could take that approach, if you can try to find what's really true, what's really the accurate-- the truth-- most true reason that you want to come here, that's going to come through. Or that would be the best way to get at what you're trying to say.

NATALIE BLAZER: Such great advice. What I love is when you don't even feel like you're reading, it feels like somebody is telling you a story, and it's just you want to know more and more. And OK, I want to interview. And so yeah, being yourself, what is the most true thing about you. I really like the way you said that.

What about, let's say, people are going to start getting acceptances soon, getting admitted to various law schools, like what advice would you give when it comes to the selection process?

CASEY CROWLEY: I think a great thing to do is to reach out to people that have already graduated and that are working. There a little bit more removed from the process. They have had more time to look back and reflect.

I think that's a great thing to do. I can almost guarantee you that every UVA lawyer will speak very highly about UVA and how much they miss Charlottesville and how they're trying to get back there.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. They will speak highly and enthusiastically, and for way longer than you anticipated having a conversation.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: I would totally agree with that. I would also say to try to kind of conduct an exercise. Like think about how it's going to feel in your body to be in that place. Like just how it's going to feel day to day. Because it's easy to think of law school as in abstract terms or how it's going to sound to say you go somewhere or what it's going to look like.

But just try to put yourself in that space as much as you can, and think about how it's going to feel. Because that's your day to day. And three years fly by, but there's still three years.

NATALIE BLAZER: As I've heard a lot of parents say, the days are long, but the years are short. So yes, it will feel like three years when you're studying. And especially in 1L. And I think picturing how you feel somewhere, the best way to do that is really to visit.

And I think we've given a lot of great reasons why Charlottesville is a wonderful place to live. But really visiting, if you can take the time. If you're an admitted student, we do offer a travel subsidy. So we try to offset the cost. But even if you're not admitted yet, and you're just considering where to go, I have heard people say all the time that they instantly when they get here that this is what's meant for them.

And on the flip side, I don't hear this, because usually, I never hear from them again. But people feel like maybe it's not the right place for them. They're meant for a New York or a DC or a Philly or a Los Angeles or Chicago. And that is great for them too. I think this place is really, really special for a lot of people, but it has to be right.

And I think if you can't visit, which would be my number one piece of advice, what you two did reaching out to professors, what you said, Casey, reaching out to alums, reaching out to current students, I know you guys would talk to anybody who reached out to you. We have amazing student ambassadors. And so asking them questions about things that are important to you.

Well, Casey and Elizabeth, this has been so much fun. It makes me just want to go outside on a hike right now. Unfortunately, I have to go back to the office. Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy 3L schedules to be a guest on the show today.

CASEY CROWLEY: Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

ELIZABETH PUTFARK: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

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NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible, with me, Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today were third year UVA law students Casey Crowley and Elizabeth Putfark. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu.

The next episode of "Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissiblepodcast. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.