‘Admissible’ S2 E8: Waitlisted. Now What?

NATALIE BLAZER: So, Katie, as everyone in our office knows at Wake Forest, you are in an a cappella group.

KATIE DELSANDRO: Yes. In college, I was, yes.

NATALIE BLAZER: And what was the name of the group?

KATIE DELSANDRO: The group was named Innuendo, [LAUGHS] kind of a play on all the other a cappella groups in the college rotation.

NATALIE BLAZER: And so can we hear a little something?

KATIE DELSANDRO: Well, I thought I might drop a beat for you.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, yeah. [BEATBOXING]

KATIE DELSANDRO: (RAPPING) Waitlist, collaborate and listen.

[LAUGHTER]

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NATALIE BLAZER: This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, dean of admissions at UVA Law. For the first time in Admissible history, I have some repeat guests on the show today. Director of Admissions Katie Delsandro has been with our office since August 2021. Prior to joining our team, Katie was an associate director in the Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action at Columbia University.

Prior to her career in higher education, Katie served as an attorney at the US Department of Commerce in the Office of the General Counsel in its Employment and Labor Law Division and was an associate in the Washington DC office of Paul Hastings. Katie is a 2012 graduate of UVA Law. And she received her BA in history from Wake Forest University.

Director of Admissions Rosanne Ibanez has been with our office since July 2022. Prior to joining our team, she was the associate director of admissions recruitment and outreach at the University of Richmond school of law. Prior to her career in law school admissions, Rosanne served as an attorney magistrate for the Commonwealth of Virginia.

She also clerked for Chief Judge Marla Graff Decker of the Virginia Court of Appeals. Rosanne earned her BA in psychology and sociology from the University of Virginia and her law degree from the University of Richmond. Welcome back to the show, Katie and Rosanne.

KATIE DELSANDRO: Hi, Natalie, happy to be here.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: Hi, so excited. I can't believe we're the first repeat people. You must be digging pretty deep.

[LAUGHTER]

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, as you two probably know from listening to season two, this season I have been asking every guest an icebreaker question. And the question is, what would be your last meal on earth?

ROSANNE IBANEZ: Well, since I'm hoping to be back on the podcast, I think I'm going to pick some themes. So I'm going to limit my universe to Charlottesville food. And I'm going to go for the red hot and blues at Continental Divide and then a cocktail made at The Alley Light by either one of our incoming law students, Nikki or Micah.

NATALIE BLAZER: Love it.

KATIE DELSANDRO: For me, I have to go back to my roots and go with Italian food. I think my last meal on earth would have to be some gnocchi, which if you share my Pittsburgh roots, you will understand that it's acceptable to call it gnocchi. But my meal would have to include that. Probably a good glass of wine, too.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yum. Great, great choices. So this episode airs on April 28, which is one day following our first deposit deadline. That means that by the time this episode airs, we are going to have a pretty good idea of what our incoming class looks like. But due to all the deposits that have been coming in, and that we assume are going to continue to come in the next few days, we also have a lot of qualified applicants that we had to place on the waitlist this year.

So our show today is really geared towards that audience, anyone who has found themselves waitlisted at a law school that they want to attend. We'll be providing some advice for what people can be doing at this stage of the cycle to manage expectations and to maximize outcomes. So I want to start by talking about the function a waitlist serves in the law school admissions process.

Every law school will approach their waitlist in a slightly different way, but in general, an admissions committee is waitlisting candidates that it wants to keep in consideration but who are unable to be admitted during the regular cycle. And that's because each school can't possibly admit all of the qualified candidates who apply in any given year. We are very fortunate at UVA Law to draw thousands of qualified applicants every year.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: I'm going to actually say out loud-- because I know we put this, and you probably have seen this on some waitlist letters. Like congratulations, you've been placed on the waitlist. So I hope people don't think that we're being weird when we say congratulations. It is a feat. Like it is reflective of what potential we think you have at our school, for sure. We're very interested. It doesn't do us any favors to keep people strung along. We would love you if we had the space.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think those are such important points. And to echo Rosanne, managing a large waitlist is very difficult. That means that a lot of candidates are still in play. They're communicating with us. We obviously always want to be replying to people. And we try our best to keep the waitlist somewhat small if we can. It's also just out of respect for the candidates who we know need to make decisions.

So that leads me to a point I really want to highlight about the timing. The waitlist is typically utilized in one of two ways or both ways. So what do we do if we enroll a smaller class than we were planning? Well, we will go to the waitlist very quickly after that first deposit deadline to fill those remaining spots.

Another option is later, meaning later in the spring or over the summer filling spots in the class after somebody who has already deposited and committed to UVA withdraws to attend another law school, or they withdraw for another reason. So it's important to keep in mind that waitlist activity, if and when it happens, can happen as soon as that first deposit deadline has passed. And it can also take place later in the summer right up until orientation.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: I've even heard of people who are getting off waitlist during the regular cycle. It really can differ from school to school.

NATALIE BLAZER: That is such a great point. And it has happened to us. I can think of a handful of people we admitted off the waitlist months before the first deposit deadline. Now, some schools have-- they might call it something different, but a priority waitlist, or they have a couple of different waitlists that they manage. We at UVA do not. We have just one waitlist, which is plenty.

And it's not ranked in any way, meaning if we need to admit someone off the waitlist, we're going to be going back to that entire list. There's not, like, one person who's getting in no matter what if we're turning to the waitlist. Throughout the cycle, the admissions committee is very carefully building the incoming class based on a lot of different factors. It needs to be balanced across different categories and dimensions.

So if a school starts losing people, whether those people choose to defer, or they withdraw to go somewhere else, the admissions committee-- they're going to be looking at how those specific withdrawals impact their incoming class. And in most cases, they're going to be going after candidates on the waitlist who will restore that balance. So you can't really control who the school is losing.

So just keep that in mind. We're going to hopefully offer you some tips for how to manage this whole process. But just remember also that a lot of times, like, these factors are not really within your control. So you have to balance, like, the optimism and hope that things will change, and that there might be some waitlist movement.

But also, as the cycle winds down, as deposit deadlines-- have to assess the options that you have in front of you, making the decision with the information you currently have in hand. And I know that's easier said than done, but at some point in time, it's good to become comfortable with the realistic decision in front of you.

KATIE DELSANDRO: And I think if you are looking at schools that have accepted you, and you feel comfortable at those schools, and you feel like those schools match the goals that you have for yourself, this is the time to start really putting your head in that game, right? And then if things pivot down the line, that's a different process to go through. But it's OK to just settle in with where you are too because there's no point in staying anxious right up until the point that you're at your first day of law school.

NATALIE BLAZER: Having said all that, while getting admitted off the waitlist is the exception and not the rule, it does happen. Every year looks really different. We've had years where we've admitted high double digits off the waitlist, right? We can't predict. Especially in the COVID, basically since 2020, it's impossible to predict really attrition that we're going to see in any given year.

So what can you do? What is within your control if you're waitlisted? I think that's probably what a lot of people want to know. So first and foremost, every school is going to run their waitlist differently. So the best thing you can do is very carefully follow the guidance provided by any particular school.

So at UVA, our admissions committee communicates very directly and openly with waitlisted candidates about how they, the waitlisters, can best communicate with us during this process. I could say the quickest way to ensure you won't be getting off that waitlist is to just disregard the instructions that we have very carefully put together for you.

So if you're listening, and you're waitlisted at UVA, you will already by now that we sent an email yesterday outlining detailed instructions for what you should do at this stage of the process. So please read that email and the waitlist's frequently asked questions, the FAQs on our website. Read those carefully. I'm pretty sure any questions you have would be covered. But again, if they're not, you can always reach out to us with questions.

So in your experience, Rosanne and Katie, what do you think are the best practices for staying in touch? We've already said it's a given you need to follow instructions. Whatever the school wants you to do, do that. What have you seen as an effective way of being someone on the waitlist in terms of your communication and your approach?

KATIE DELSANDRO: I think, again, can't be said enough, follow the instructions. But in doing so-- for example, UVA will give you opportunities to continue to express your interest. Addressing the big letter of continued interest question that we seem to get a lot, you will have an opportunity to express your interest in UVA.

It will be in the form of a Google form rather than sending us a letter of continued interest. But that doesn't mean that it has to be any less genuine, any less thought out. In what ways have you expressed to us that you-- among all these other people who are maybe a little like you, you are the one who has the most to bring to UVA. And I can't tell you what that is for you because that will be different for every person.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: I think one of the things, too, is to continue to do the work that you need to do to make sure that this is a good decision for you. Make sure that if the time comes and you get an offer off the waitlist, that it is a decision you can make with total confidence that, yes, I can live in Charlottesville. Yes, I like the community of people that are here. These are the academic offerings that I know that I want. These are the different career paths that I know I can have from a certain school.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's a great point. I will also note that in the email we sent, we asked you to fill out a form expressing your interest. People ask, well, can I call? Can I visit? Can I meet with someone? Can I talk to someone about my interest? We are open to folks who want to come in and take a self-guided tour, for example.

But you shouldn't come visit UVA Law and expect to have that one-on-one interaction with any of the three of us. Of course, you can take a self-guided tour. Our office coordinator will answer any logistical questions, but that visit in and of itself is not necessarily going to be noted in your file and what we're going to go to.

Other law schools do it differently. I know at a law school I worked at previously like a waitlister could come in. And we took walk-ins of all kinds. And so definitely check with each school. I will say that, given the size of our office, it's just not something that we have the bandwidth to do.

KATIE DELSANDRO: I do think it's an important point because there have been years where word went out that if you come and visit UVA, you're more likely to get in off the waitlist. Think carefully about that because, again, as Natalie said, it is for you. Your presence at UVA is not going to be the thing that makes the difference at this point.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So aside from maybe coming and expecting an audience with me or one of you two, what other I would say missteps or misguided things do you see waitlist candidates do?

KATIE DELSANDRO: I think over persistence, right? So we will give you opportunities to express your interest to us. Try to limit your interactions to those opportunities unless there's something you really, really need to know or really, really need to express outside those.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: Don't get in your own way, a great way to put it. Yes.

KATIE DELSANDRO: Another thing I think that I have seen that is a big turnoff is bashing the other schools that have admitted you, right? And so we will sometimes see correspondents like, well, I'm considering going to X, Y, Z school, but I don't really like them. I would really rather go to you. Like, well, they are colleagues. We don't want you bashing them, either. They could be a great school, too.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: I will also say one of the other things-- this is specifically I think for students that are still in school. Don't give up. And so this will, of course, be my first cycle here at UVA. But at my prior institution, people were coming off the waitlist when they were getting final grades or summer LSAT scores.

And this person-- it was probably the last two weeks before orientation. And he was someone who was still in school at the time. And it was that 0.01 in that Spanish class that made all of the difference to the admissions committee. And I could be like, this person's incredible. And he ended up being, like, the student bar association president.

And I remember being a fourth year and asking myself like, will this final matter in five years? And the answer is yes, it totally can. And it can also mean money. And it can also mean lots of different things in the course of what this process looks like for every single person.

So I always encourage people, finish out strong, whether you are in school or in your job. We want people who give their best. And so just because things are winding down, or they're not going to be things directly communicated to us, sometimes these small things can make a difference.

NATALIE BLAZER: You'll never regret giving it your all at the end. I agree with that completely. So a couple more scenarios. If you do get off the waitlist, a lot of people ask, is scholarship money available? The answer is, in theory, yes. But remembering what stage we're at in this cycle, you should just be expecting that if there is any money remaining in the budget, it's going to be a relatively small amount. So you should be prepared to be taking out loans and figuring out your own financing.

Another resource I hear waitlisted folks asking about is housing. We're never going to admit somebody and just throw them out in the cold, OK? We may not be able to offer you a huge scholarship off the waitlist, but housing-- you can always find housing.

You're not going to feel behind if you're admitted later in the cycle. Like we have an entire infrastructure here dedicated to making sure that you are slotting in right with your class. We will never admit somebody after the first day of orientation. Orientation is mandatory. That is the day we consider the class is in. You're going to be completely up to speed, and so you don't need to worry about that.

So one thing a lot of people tell me, OK, if I'm not admitted this cycle, can I go to another law school and then apply to transfer right after the one all year? Now, at both the previous law schools I worked at, especially the most recent one, we had a very large transfer class. So actually, somebody going to another school, getting very good grades-- and I mean you really have to have good grades-- transferring in is pretty viable option, right?

At UVA, we don't really have a transfer cycle anymore. We used to. When I was here, there was always a handful of transfers. For whatever reason, we don't really take people off as transfers. So for that reason, I think people have looked at our ABA 509. They see that in the last two years, we've had zero transfer students [INAUDIBLE]. And so we really don't even get that many applications.

So if somebody asked me now in my role at UVA, should I go somewhere else and then apply to transfer? I say if UVA Law is your goal, that's really not a viable option. Would we maybe ever admit one transfer? Sure, but like I would never advise somebody to do that just because the chances are very, very, very unlikely.

That is not true at every law school. Do your homework. Look at their 509. Like I said, some law schools are enrolling dozens of transfers. And you will have a good understanding hopefully from their materials what grades do you need to get. Like you better be prepared to work your tail off during one all year because most schools will only take transfers that are above a certain GPA threshold.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: And I will say as a former law school transfer myself, please don't go anywhere where the plan A is to transfer, and you will be unhappy at that school if you have to stay. There are a lot of factors that go into this. So you want to make sure you can see yourself successful here. You can have the career outcomes that you're looking for. You can be in markets or competitive in markets that make sense for you and your family.

I had a certain amount of freedom being a younger single person when I transferred. But there's also something about law school that changes your perspective. And so I tell people like, I have ended up where I wanted to be, but didn't necessarily know that at the time.

But please don't make big decisions with plan B's that could be impacted by literally anything that happens every day. So going into those big decisions with confidence that no matter what happens, you can have an outcome that you want for yourself is important.

NATALIE BLAZER: I do agree like starting off somewhere just knowing-- like the first year of law school is hard enough. Like you don't want to be there without being fully committed to where you are.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: And the other thing too is like if you are a competitive as a transfer student, you're probably incredibly competitive in your own school. So thinking about what you give up with that reputation and academic prowess also is very meaningful.

NATALIE BLAZER: And so I want to circle back. So if you're not ultimately admitted off the waitlist, you can either look at the options that you already have in hand. And if you're waitlisted here, I am confident you have good options. Maybe you've even gotten a lot of scholarship money at one of those.

If you want to take a step back and take more time, there's a lot of things you can do. You can get more work experience. That is never going to hurt you. That is only going to add to your application. Improve other elements of your application. Is it a standardized test score that can go up? Is it a better writing sample?

Most importantly, keep reflecting on why. Why this school? Why now? And you might have saved yourself a lot of time, and effort, and trouble, and heartache by really taking a step back and realizing like, is this what I want to do? Is this where I want to be?

If you just keep reevaluating and moving forward, getting work experience, volunteering, being involved in your community, you will end up at the right place. Or you won't go to law school, and that could be OK, too. So just remember, like, this is not the end-all, be-all. There's going to be other things.

KATIE DELSANDRO: I think it starts with a threshold question at this point, which is, have I been admitted to a school that I feel like I could thrive at and that I feel like I could achieve my goals, right? Why did I go to law school? Can I achieve that goal at one of the schools that has admitted me? If the answer is yes, then you should probably go to that school. If the answer is no, then that I think is the time to start thinking about how you could improve your application for a future cycle.

I like to call that door number three. And I feel like door number three is always there. Law schools are always going to be here. We've had such a range of applicants. Like even in this cycle, I've seen students as young as 18 and as old as 63, right?

NATALIE BLAZER: And I think this is hopefully obvious from what we're talking about taking time out, and reflecting, and being intentional. Reapplicants are successful all the time. We have so many reapplicants who have done something to improve their file. And we admit them. And that to me shows determination. It shows patience, persistence, resilience, which listeners know we care a lot about at UVA Law.

Sometimes people improve their application in material ways that make a difference. They apply binding in the next cycle to really show like, hey, I didn't get in once, now I'm showing you I am truly committed. They apply earlier in the cycle, right? The timing was off.

Obviously, a lot of reapplicants are not successful. But if you are a reapplicant, and you can really say honestly that you have made positive changes to your application, you should come at the new cycle from a position of strength and optimism because it does happen. So I'm curious if either of you are waitlisted at any of the law schools that you applied to, if you can remember.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: I'm going to go for 100%. Yeah, I've been on a ton of waitlists, for sure. But now, I can look back on that experience with, I don't know, a weird sense of things turning out the way that they should.

KATIE DELSANDRO: So I will say Natalie gave us that question in advance. And I thought to myself, yes, I was definitely on a waitlist. I don't remember which waitlist I was on. I thought maybe I'll go back and look, right? I'll pull out all those letters and I'll see. But then I thought, no, I think it's really important that I don't remember which waitlists I was on.

I graduated in 2012. I've been out of law school for 11 years. And it just doesn't matter anymore at all. And I think that's so important, right? Wherever you end up, it will be the place you are meant to be. And all those waitlists are going to go to, like, some spot in the back of your brain that you don't even care.

NATALIE BLAZER: That is hugely important. I personally-- I mean, I graduated law school four years earlier than you two, but I certainly could not tell you. I couldn't even tell you where I applied. I know it's so easy for us to sit here and say everything will work out. I know when you're in it. Oh, gosh, everything feels so important and so heavy. And I hope that what we're getting across is that ultimately, at the end of the day, whatever you're going through right now will get you to where you're meant to be truly well.

I hope this conversation has been helpful for our listeners out there who are trying to make sense of a waitlist decision or multiple waitlist decisions during the cycle. Katie and Rosanne, thank you both so much for being here again to help talk all this through today.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: Thanks, Natalie,

KATIE DELSANDRO: Thanks for having me.

ROSANNE IBANEZ: We're happy to come back for season three.

NATALIE BLAZER: You can count on it.

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This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guests today were my lovely directors of admission, Katie Delsandro and Rosanne Ibanez. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu.

The next season of Admissible will be out in the fall. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissiblepodcast. Thanks so much for listening. And please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

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